Ashby Kinch: This episode is the first in a series featuring faculty fellows in the Willow Grant, which “aims to increase success of Native American STEM Faculty and advance knowledge about issues impacting their career progression.” The project is in its 6th year of exploring Indigenous Research Methodologies and ways of indigenizing academia while supporting the advancement of Indigenous scholars in various professorial roles at both tribal and non-tribal universities. The Willow Alliance is a collaboration among faculty from Salish-Kootenai College and the University of Montana. The project is led by Dr. Ruth Plenty Sweetgrass-She Kills, from Nueta Hidatsa Sahnish College and funded by the National Science Foundation through its Alliance for Graduate Education and the Professoriate (AGEP). Listeners can learn more about the grant at the link in the show notes. 

 
The Graduate School is pleased to present this podcast series focusing on the experience of individual faculty members and key personnel, who tell their stories of finding their way in an academic context that is not always well-aligned with Native cultural and intellectual values. But their stories demonstrate creative and successful approaches to supporting Indigenous research and developing a new cadre of Native faculty, who play a vital role in expanding the intellectual and cultural capacity of the state of Montana 

In this episode, we talk with Dean Nicolai, head of the Native American Studies department at Salish-Kootenai College (SKC). Dean’s field work in archaeology throughout the state, and his teaching at SKC, are grounded in his desire to develop practices that build from Indigenous knowledge. He increasingly rejects techniques that unnecessarily disturb cultural sites or the landscape. Instead, he seeks to explore sites in a less-invasive way than Western scientific methods allow, using story to inform the direction the research takes.  

In the episode, he tells his own story of pursuing his education, how he got inspired to pursue Anthropology and Native American Studies, and the essential role mentors have played in opening up new paths for his life. Like other opportunities that have shaped his career, the Willow AEGEP Alliance has brought him in contact with inspiring and engaged scholars. We are delighted to share his story with listeners, who will appreciate Dean’s gusto for exploring all life has to offer. 

Welcome to Confluence, where we attend to immense amplitudes and follow the river’s course. 

Welcome to Confluence, Dean. 

Dean Nicolai: Oh, well I'm happy to be here.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And, and thanks for coming down. You, you came down from Salish Kootenai College, where you're a faculty member. And it's one of the wonderful relationships between, uh, UM and SKC. It's relatively close. So we can get down there in about an hour and y'all can come visit us. And so it's been great in the last year. I've had the, the pleasure of being up there a couple times and meet with faculty down here. But today we're kind of joined to talk about the Willow grant, which is this wonderful grant opportunity that you're part of. And I wanna just, you know, hear your story about the Willow grant, how you came to be involved, what your part in that grant is. 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, um, well the, the first time I ever heard about it was we were actually sitting in a faculty in-service at the beginning of the year, which is what we do at SKC to kind of initially get things going. But, um, we were sitting in there and, uh, Shandin Pete, who was the, the administrator at, on the SKC side at that time, said, “we're launching this Willow Fellowship.” And he started naming names off of who's gonna be one of the fellows. And he, he mentions me and my colleague, Aaron Brien, and we, we looked at each other, you know what, what's going on here? I didn't know I was a part of, part of it. And I, so I just raised my hand and I said, “Shandin, what is this Willow thing you're talking about?” And he said, “Well, it's a, it's to support Native American faculty in STEM fields.” And I said, “Well, hold on.” I said “STEM fields?” Because, um, you know, I'm an anthropologist for the most part. And we've never really been considered part of the STEM field. Right? You know, especially when you're writing grants and things like that, they just look at it and like, “Oh you soft science, you know? We'll see you guys later kind of thing.” I just said, I made the comment in front of like all the faculty, I said, “So I'm STEM now?” You know?  

Ashby Kinch: News to me.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. News to me. And I said, “Okay, well what is this?” And then we had some initial meetings and tried to figure out what was gonna go on there. But for the most part, it was kind of confusing at first because I didn't really know what it was. They said they were gonna support us and they had some different ideas about how to do that. So initially our meetings were basically hashing out differences between faculty and the things they do--comparison to U of M in SKC. And what I started to learn was that we're very different as far as how faculty are viewed and, and, and our duties as well. So like Aaron Thomas, he's part of the fellowship program as well, and he started talking about that they do a lot of buyouts for grants and they bring in adjuncts to teach their classes. And it's part of the tenure track to do these kinds of things. And, and so we were, me and Aaron, we were both going, “Well, that's not what we do at all at SKC. We're totally different.”  

Ashby Kinch: You're in the trenches.  

Dean Nicolai: We're in the trenches,  

Ashby Kinch: You're in the trenches—teaching, really, primary teaching faculty, but advising and support and mentoring of students. 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, so we, so right away we knew there was a lot of differences and we're like, “Well, how is Willow gonna support us in comparison to other faculty and other places?” So they had some ideas about, well, maybe write a grant, maybe try to publish something. We'll even buy out part of your teaching load. And I said, well, that's not gonna happen. Because we're hired at SKC to teach. That's why we're there. And our president even says, “If you're a faculty here, you're already tenured.” You know?  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Yeah.  

Dean Nicolai: So there's none of that kind of like the idea that we're gonna lose our jobs because we're not publishing or writing grants and bringing in money. And, and the whole reason I'm there in the first place is because I like to teach. You know? And so I didn't know that until I started teaching there, but yeah. But once, like you said, once I got in the trenches, I mean, I just, that's what I want to do. So I wasn't interested in a buyout for publication or writing grants or anything like that. So they supported us initially with some, like, small funding just to support us. But still, like the first and second year, I really wasn't sure what we were doing. So it seems like what's actually came out of it is that there's a better understanding now of how faculty do their jobs at a small college. 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Different pathways, right? Different, different ways to be a faculty member. Yeah. You know, within this broader umbrella.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, of course. And then, and then, you know, the fellows that we started off with, not of all of 'em are still with us. You know, people have moved on to do other things. Like Aaron Brien left and now he's the THPO for the Crow tribe. 

Ashby Kinch: Stop for a second. Define THPO for our general-- 

Dean Nicolai: Oh. Oh yeah.  

Ashby Kinch: Sorry. I mean that's something I wanted to talk about, but just, you know, that's comfortable acronym in Indian Country, but other people might not know it. 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, I sometimes I do that thinking that everybody understands what the acronyms mean, but it's a tribal historic preservation officer. 

Ashby Kinch: Right. And every tribe has one.  

Dean Nicolai: Well, not all tribes have 'em. It's supported by the National Park Service. But it's part of the National Historic Preservation Act and some other things that are out there as far as policy and law when it comes to preservation work. But yeah, so he left to become the THPO officer, and so we've had a change of personnel. There's been a lot of administrators kind of seem to come and go. I think we're on our third administrator at SKC now. That's like the, our support person, you know? So I think--I'm not sure who all the support people are at U of M. But um, there seems to be quite a few. So one of the things I noticed right away was that there was, like a gap in between the administrators and the fellows that we didn't really seem to know what administrators were doing, um, other than supporting us in having their meetings. And, and also writing reports and things like that. But we've had pretty steady meetings over the last three, three years or so in the program. But I think we're right at the end of it now.  

Ashby Kinch: Yes. 

Dean Nicolai: Um, Diana Doan-Crider is now our administrator and I've been meeting with her quite a bit actually. They did a no-cost extension, I think, for the grant. And so there's some money to spend out there. So we're actually gonna go to Puerto Rico at the end of the month for the SACNAS Conference.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And SACNAS for, again, for listeners, really important: Society for the Advancement of Chicano and Native Americans [in] Science. Yeah. Something, is that right? 

Dean Nicolai: Something like that. It’s a pretty tongue twister. 

Ashby Kinch: It's a tongue twister, but it's a really important. Sort of STEM focused, right? But, but broad STEM for Native American scientists, but also Chicano scientists. So, which is an interesting combination.  

Dean Nicolai: That's what I'm most excited about for this trip because it sounds like they've talked to a couple people there that are doing archeological work there. And so they've set up some meetings for me to go visit with them. 

Ashby Kinch: Fantastic.  

Dean Nicolai: So, I'm really interested to see what they're doing as far as archeology in Puerto Rico. And I'm wondering, I mean, I have a lot of questions already because I'm thinking of like the hurricanes that have come through there disturbing things and uncovering things and maybe covering things back up. I don't--I'm just interested in what they're doing as far as maybe salvage archeology and things like that in, in Puerto Rico. But, um, it's a whole new world that I'm not familiar with, so I'm really excited to go visit with these folks and see what it's all about down? 

Ashby Kinch: And there's a pretty substantial delegation going down. I know Ke Wu, who's one of the program administrators at Montana's going, you're going, who else is going down?  

Dean Nicolai: I think there's around five of us. I just know me and Ke are going. I think Ren Freeman is going as well. I'm not sure the others. 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah.  

Dean Nicolai: Uh, but they did put me as the driver. So I'll be checking out the van and driving people around I guess. So I'll have that duty as well.  

Ashby Kinch: Nice. But, but they do drive on the correct side of the road over here, as an American. 

Dean Nicolai: [laughs] I hope so.  

Ashby Kinch: So, um, so the Willow Grant, you know, like you said, you joined it kind of midstream. It was already kind of up and running and now it's kind of coming to an end. What kind of impact has it had for you? What kinds of things have kind of merged for you? 

Dean Nicolai: Well, like I said, I, I realize now I'm part of the STEM world, so that's kind of cool. But you know they have--just meeting the people, having conversations, that's, that's always something that's, pretty fun to do with--you know, they're all educators, administrators, so, I mean, there's a lot of minds and a lot of ideas going on. But I think right now is probably the most exciting part for me because, um, I've been visiting with Diana here the last two weeks, and they want to support some sort of project for me.  

And so I talked with them about possibly creating a master's degree in tribal historic preservation, which would be housed at SKC: Salish Kootenai College. And I already, already have a pretty good rough draft of what that would look like. And then possibly supporting, uh, me financially to pursue my doctorate as part of this development of this degree. 

So it'd be more like a profe--I guess it'd be a dissertation, but I'm not sure what it's gonna look like. But for me, I never really considered, oh, after getting my master's, to even pursue a doctorate. I, I kind of feel like that I'm at a spot at SKC where I, um, I enjoy being there. I could see myself being there till I retire. So I didn't think that I really needed to pursue that because I'm already doing the things I want to do there. But in order to teach, of course you would know this in a master's degree program, you need a doctoral degree. And so I think that would benefit our students. Um, it would benefit our community. Benefits the college for sure. It'll keep our students that we already have in our preservation program there as well because they could stay there. And what our students that have been graduating outta that program have been coming to U of M for the most part, if they're pursuing a graduate degree. 

Yeah. Because I know the folks here, I kind of have a, an inside. So I've had some really good feedback and our students that are coming out of SKC, coming into U of M have done really well. And actually in our pre-conversation talking about Kelly Dixon, she was telling me that the students that we've been sending them, are really prepared. And she goes, “They're actually sometimes more prepared than some of our students,” which I thought was a really big compliment.  

Ashby Kinch: I've talked to her about that before and I think that's really important to stress it. It's not just that y'all are doing an excellent job teaching, which you are obviously, right? It's also that out of that SKC community, the way you teach your work, the way you teach tribal, historical, historic preservation, grounds you in an ethical system that Anglo students are not getting. In other words, you understand things about how to do work in Indian country, in particular, that is a very steep learning curve for a student who's coming out of a, an Anglo education tradition, in a primarily white institution. 

I mean, it's a, a thing we've stressed a lot on this, on this episode when we've talked with Native scholars is that there's a distinct body of knowledge there that is valuable. It has its own intrinsic value and it's contributing to the advancement of a lot of fields. And your area is a crucial one where, you know, an archeologist like yourself is working right in the middle of a, a tribal community.  And you know, what matters, what, what the value system of that research is. Does that make sense? 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. And it does actually, because you know being at U of M was quite different. It was, it wasn't really a culture shock for me. Uh, but you're learning in the, in the sort of that western world, the western idea of actually how to do archeology. 

So, you know, our program is the only tribal historic preservation program in the nation. It's anthropology-based, so we do teach western methods, but we also teach an Indigenous methods. So, like you're saying, our methods are actually grounded in our value system.  

So for instance, just for an example, is I do non-invasive archeology. And the reason I do that is because of the philosophy of disturbance. So in the value system we see things as animate, alive, there's presence there, where in the western world they may not see it that way or may not even understand that philosophy. So oftentimes in the western idea of archeology, you collect, you curate, you put it in repositories or it goes to museums. 

And in the Indigenous method, we go out, out and do pedestrian survey. It's more of a preservation-minded type of archeology. So in the collaborative things I'm doing when it comes to archeology, I have to bring that up constantly of like, “Okay, this is how I'm going to do the archeological work that I'm collaborating with you about,” you know? And so and, and actually what I'm seeing, especially regional in um, sort of plains archeology and plateau archeology, is that that methodology is becoming quite popular.  

Ashby Kinch: Exactly. So that, I think that's so important to stress. Like, that's what I think Kelly is coming…this is where the field is going. But we've already got talent, locally, that knows how to do that work. In other words, so the field is moving toward the work that uh, people like you are already doing on the ground. And that's so important cuz then we can create a new synergy by that kind of collaborative work. 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, definitely. And I think even Kelly mentioned that she's not interested in doing any excavation anymore because it's disturbance, you know? I mean, what kind of information are you really looking to get out of it? Because in the western world, and I guess we could frame this back to Willow in some ways, that if we're doing, uh, collaborative research in this western side we're looking to publish, right? So on the sort of Native side, we're not really looking to publish. We're looking to--of course we're gonna write reports. But we're looking to preserve and preserve institute in place, right? So we don't want to move those things off the landscape. And, and Western archaeology will also tell you that anytime you remove things, the context is lost. So what does that really mean?  

And so I, I would say to Western archeologists, you know, why do you want to excavate? I, I see that there's, there's times and places to do that, especially when big projects are happening and things are gonna be destroyed or disturbed. That's, I think that's when you do those types of things. Or in grand archeology when you're trying to answer these really big, broad questions. 

But as Native peoples, we're not really interested in that per se, because we've already had archeologists for a long period of time telling our stories for us. And so for me, I get to sort of reverse that and I can say “this is our story coming from a Native perspective and it's gonna involve non-disturbance archeology, you know? 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And let's dig into that a little bit. It's not just that you have stories to tell from the work. You actually have stories that tell you about the work. So, Native stories are actually breaking new ground because by tapping into oral traditions, you're actually locating things that otherwise would not have been located. Is that, is that kind of a good way of putting it? But the story is driving the research. 

Dean Nicolai: You're, you're spot on because you know, one of the things that we do is we look at our ethnography, our, our background. Um, it's not written. It's oral tradition. And a lot of times what we're seeing now is that we're validating our own stories from the past. And a lot of times, archeology, if it's not something that's been written down, it's not valid. And so, yeah, we're able to just say, this is the reality of something based on our oral tradition and the archeology confirms it. 

You know, and so uh, for instance I ran a field school out at Missouri Headwaters State Park this summer, two week field school. I was supposed to be in Yellowstone, um, but the floods happen and so I couldn't get there this year, but I'll be back there next year. But, um, we have a lot of oral tradition related to that Missouri headwaters area. And so just actually getting out there on the ground and feeling that presence and, and looking around and saying, “Okay, what is going on here? And what has been going on here in the past?” Uh, we actually had an uh, a band of Salish that was kind of located in that area in pre-history, but after disease and the horse and the gun and all the kinds of things that were going on with colonialism--that band almost completely died out. And so the, the remnants of those people ended up in the Bitteroot Valley with the current Bitterroot Salish folks, you know, and so. But just getting out there on the ground and looking around and going, “Well, this is where I would want to be too.” You know, because it's, it's lush with resources. And I mean, bison would come right through that area. You have the Madison Buffalo jump is right there. I'm basically sta--sitting there and going, “I'm sitting in a place where my ancestors probably had been and camped and did all kinds of different things.” And then I actually get to go and look at the archeology on the ground and it confirms that people were there. And so that confirms our existence there.  

I can't tell you much more about some like, like oral tradition stories when it comes to creation and things like that. But, um, it, it validates our presence really in the region for a long standing period of time, as well. I mean, we, we talk about our existence through oral tradition just in this region for at least 12,000 years. We have oral tradition related to when Glacier Lake Missoula was here.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. That's, that's the one that. And I might have to pause here just to make sure I get his name right. But it's Tim Ryan, right? Tim Ryan, yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the experience I had with Tim telling that story on the shores of the Flathead Lake. And you look around and you're like, “Yeah, of course.” Right? In other words, it, it's so clear. The story tells a, a, a clear account of glacial retreat and you're looking at all the evidence all around you.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. I mean, they have verified, uh, archeological sites at the water level where Glacial Lake Missoula would've been during that period of time. And so that tells [us] people were here. And it's probably either my ancestors or Kootenai folks' ancestors. They probably had the longest tenure in the region, for sure. Um, so these would've been Clovis hunters, you know, they would've been hunting megafauna. And you know, I just always think about that and I tell my students this all the time, is, um I said, “You're sitting here because your ancestors were very resilient. The only reason you're here today is because they were very successful. They could adapt. They could adapt culturally. They could adapt physically,” you know? And they were strong people. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here today. We wouldn't be sitting here, you and I, having this conversation. You know? 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. You know, that's fantastic. And I, I think there's a big human story there too. In other words, a big human story about resilience and the bottlenecks that the species have gone through that we need to kind of remind ourselves that that's the side of us, that, that knows how to solve problems when, when we're faced, uh, against them. But to have that local example--so inspiring. The students must love that. Right? And they must light up.  

Dean Nicolai: I think they do. You know. I'll have students that'll take, uh, like I'm teaching Intro to Anthropology right now. And I get--it's an elective across campus, so we get a lot of students from other programs that take this class and By the end of the 10-week period, you can just see the light bulbs going off. And, and they're questioning their own, like belief systems and they're just, they're, they've been exposed to something that they've never been exposed to before.  

And that's what happened to me. When I was here at U of M, I was in the political science program starting off. I just chose something because I didn't really know what to do. 

Ashby Kinch: And uh, so you were talking about as an undergrad? 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah.  

Ashby Kinch: You came, you came down. To just wanna be a student, figuring it out, you kind of randomly chose a major.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. And so I, I took Intro to Anthropology here as a, as an elective to fill my social sciences elective. And I loved it, you know, and I was like, well, this is what I want to do. Because even when I was a, a, a kid, I was interested in archeology. I found my first projectile point, my first arrowhead when I was like nine years old--right on our property in Spring Creek, right along down, uh, north of Arlee. And I was hooked at that point cuz I was like, “Wow, people have been here.” And so then my eyes were always glued to the ground after that. 

I didn't really know much about anthropology and I, I knew what archeology kind of was. And then when I found out archeology is a subfield of anthropology, I was like, “Okay, well that's, that's it. I'm hooked. I'm, I'm all in.” You know?  

Um, but I mean, just getting back to the students at SKC, I see that kind of thing happening as well. And then I'll, I'll, I'll tell them I said, “Well, this is a western part of what we're teaching here at SKC. But really our students in in this program are here for the preservation side.” And then they go, “Well what is that?” And we've actually had students change majors after taking anthropology classes at SKC, cuz they go, “Well, I didn't know this program even existed. I didn't even know there was such a thing. I would like to do this too.” And so I've had many students--I mean, we kind of picked them out of other programs. At least they're staying at SKC.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Dean Nicolai: But, uh, we're definitely taking 'em and recruiting-- 

Ashby Kinch: and poaching 'em-. 

Dean Nicolai: [laughs] poaching them over to our program, you know.  

Ashby Kinch: So in your own journey then, I mean, you finished that, uh, undergraduate degree, but I mean, you have a fairly, you know, layered life journey in terms of education, right? 

Dean Nicolai: Oh yeah. It's been interesting. Outta high school, I came to U of M right out of high school. U of M was still on the tri—10-week system at that time.  

Ashby Kinch: Quarters. Yeah.  

Dean Nicolai: And my, my dream was I wanted to run track for U of M, you know. And so, um, I didn't make it to pass the second term and failed out. And I, I just wasn't, I don't think I was ready at that time. I wasn't ready to go to school. I didn't have much as far as life experience outside of the reservation. My life was working on the ranch, going to school, playing sports. School really didn't interest me all that much. I, I think with, without sports, I probably wouldn't even have made it through high school, just be, to be honest with you. So then I, you know, I spent, oh, 11, 12 years just being a laborer, working. I fought fire, wildland fire, right outta high school. So I did that every year until I was around 28, 29. And I took a couple years off, decided to do some construction with some friends, just framing houses and doing that kind of thing.  

And I wasn't really enjoying it. And I was actually out in Frenchtown in late, mid to late December. And I was the only one that showed up to the job site that morning and it was cold. So I was shoveling off the, the base of the, cuz we were getting ready to frame walls and everything that day. And it wasn't till like noon and the foreman showed up. And, uh, as soon as he showed up--all morning, I was going, “What am--why am I doing this? What am I here for? I don't even, I have no future [in] this kind of thing. This is not what I want to do.” I said, “I, I think I should go back to school.” And so I'm contemplating this all morning. Well, I'm there by myself shoveling snow. And so the foreman shows up and, and I, I just put down my work bags and I said, “I'm going to Missoula.” And he's like, “What are, what are you doing?” I said, “I'm going to sign up for classes at U of M. I'm going back to school.” [laughs] And he's like, “What?” And that was last, my last day with him.  

Ashby Kinch: I love that. 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. I just said, “I'm done with this.” I just, it's not what I wanted. 

Ashby Kinch: Thanks for helping me make the decision. 

[laughter]  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. It was a real easy decision after that morning. And so I started classes that, that um spring term here at, at U of M. And uh, it took a little bit of time to get it, like, figure out what I want to do. But once I figured that out, you know, I was just, like I said, I was all in. 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. That's such an important story for people to hear. Right? I mean, you, first of all, you learned a lot of stuff working that you bring to your work, right? I mean, you know what a hard day's work looks like. Right? So I'm sure, I'm sure when you're out in the field doing field work, right? Like, I mean all that comes back to bear. 

Dean Nicolai: It's not even a job to go out in the field doing field work.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. It seems easy. Yeah. But I think, I mean, I think people who haven't, who haven't gone to grad school and haven't done, you know, research may not realize how important that work ethic is. Yeah. I mean, you, you're not getting through grad school without a really strong work ethic. So you got that in this other way, right? Yeah. By, by doing the hard labor. 

Dean Nicolai: It was, it was, um--I mean, you just don't want to go down a path that you don't enjoy. But also at the same time, fighting fire--I love doing that. It was the camaraderie of being out there, the thrill of fighting fire, that you're on the edge of some sort of uncertainty sometimes or most of the time when you're out there. But yeah, that work ethic and that drive, I think is what, like, allowed me or gave me a least a, a chance of success, you know? 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, yeah.  

Dean Nicolai: And so, um, once I started school, I, I valued it because I was like, “wow, here's a future.” And the whole 10, 12 years before that, I was just going day to day, you know, just wondering what's gonna happen. And I, I don't know if that's a good way to live, you know? But that's what what I did. And so being at U of M I think it gave me a chance for success, for sure.  

Ashby Kinch: And did you have a sense then, once you were finishing that undergrad, that you did wanna roll straight into the graduate degree? 

Dean Nicolai: I did. Yeah. I did. I double majored in Native American studies and anthropology. Once I finished my, uh, anthropology degree I went right into grad school. I had a few credits to finish off to get my BA in Native American studies, so I did that at the same time I was taking my core classes for the anthropology program. So I finished up at about a year and a half with, um, my core curriculum, and then had an opportunity to go do another graduate degree program. Yes. Um, which is-- 

Ashby Kinch: And this brings us to Norway.   

Dean Nicolai: Norway. Yeah, for sure. [laughs] Talk about life changing events.  

Ashby Kinch: So you did that, um, you had a full degree there?  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. So it was a master's in Indigenous philosophy at the Center for Sami studies at the University of Tromsø in Norway.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. So the Sami people for, for listeners right, are uh, are an Indigenous people that spread across the northern tier of Scandinavia, Finland, and Norway. 

Dean Nicolai: And even into Russia as well. So they are the Indigenous population of that area. Um, it was a wonderful experience. I mean, like you said, full circle. You know, and then I was able to bring my son and my family there, uh, finish the degree, write a master's thesis and then come back. 

And then when I got back here, I was able to finish up my thesis for U of M. And so, so within five, four years I got, I was able to finish up two master's degree programs. And I, I tell you what, I would've never thought I could ever do that in my entire life. I just, it just didn't seem like I had it in me to do it. Um, so it's like you just day to day, you just keep plugging along and eventually you get there.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. You know, and mentors are opening up these doors for you too. Right? People are pointing you in these directions. And I think in the case of Tromsø, so it was Kate Shanley? 

Dean Nicolai: It was Kate Shanley. Yeah. Um, and she's been--since I was at U of M, she's been a mentor for me and, uh, just always been very supportive. And, you know, she'd helped develop this collaboration with the University of Tromsø Norway. And I was actually on my way over to Butte, to the folk festival there in the summertime, and she called and says, “Hey, do you want to go to Norway?” I said, “Oh, like for what trip to what--a conference or something?” She's like, “No, do you want to go to Norway and go to school?” And I said, “What, what?”  

Ashby Kinch: Give me, give me a--I'll talk to you after the folk festival. 

Dean Nicolai: I said, “Well, let's visit.” Cuz I didn't know what it was. And she goes, “Okay, yeah, just, we'll make a time.” And then she, we actually did an initial visit, like 10-day visit, uh, looked at the program, attended a conference there, and then came home. And then I had a long discussion with family about, okay, is this something that I want to do? I said, “Well, it's all paid for. Why not?” [laughs] Yeah, yeah. You know, why not? 

Ashby Kinch: So you took the plunge?  

Dean Nicolai: I took the plunge and not knowing what was gonna happen. And it wasn't easy. It definitely wasn't easy, but, uh, it changed my whole worldview on just, you know, what do people do on, in different places, you know? Or so--I think sometimes we get so trapped in our own small world that you can't see the bigger picture. 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. So probably, there's probably some similarities with Northern peoples, right? Yeah. But man, you're way up there, just right on the edge of the Arctic Circle. And so long, uh, winter nights and adjusting that.  

Dean Nicolai: Oh, many long winter nights. I think that was the hardest part for me is my sleep habits were really bad when I was there. Um, I was all over the place. I could just never get adjusted with it. Um, but my son was able to do it pretty easy and he was only eight at the time. So we put him right in the local public school and six months he was speaking fluent Norwegian at his age level. You know? I wasn't able to do that because everybody sort of my age wants to speak English with you, you know, cuz they, you know, they wanna get better at their English. So I didn't have to struggle when it came to that. But— 

Ashby Kinch: Not even on the basketball court?  

Dean Nicolai: Uh, no, you, you know, you could, you learn to count to 10 pretty quick because you know, you need to know your plays. But yeah.  That was also a great incentive to, to be there, you know, to be able to play some, some basketball while I was there as well. So, uh, those people have turned into lifelong friends. I mean, everybody that I was there with, you know, we still keep in contact with. 

And like my son was saying today, he was like, “I can't wait to go back”. He goes, “I wish I could find something that I could do there.” I'm like, “Well, you never know.” 

Ashby Kinch: Not beyond the question.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, those doors open up. And it seems like since, since I've been at U of M, I mean, I feel lucky sometimes because, I don't know if it was me or just the opportunities came, but when they did, I, I, I just tried to grab onto them as best as possible.  

Ashby Kinch: Such an important takeaway for, for listeners who are thinking about their education. I mean, it's, it's: find those opportunities. Jump in. Go two feet in.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, exactly. Just, you never know what's gonna happen, you know, so that I think a lot of people live in that little space of fear and I'd use to myself sometimes as well. But you just never know until you just go for it, you know?  

Ashby Kinch: Well, and, and so you have such an incredible story and I know there are these chapters you've referred to one of these chapters possibly to come, right, which would be the PhD. Um, I'm only circling back to that cuz I, you know, that's something we also have been talking about you and I over the last year about collaborations between the two institutions. And what are the ways UM, in particular, you know--SKC is not alone among the tribal colleges and, and universities, the TCUs in, in needing to build out its capacity. Right? How do you build out your faculty capacity, right? And so they're looking for all kinds of ways. So SKC is added some master's programs. You're talking about a possible ‘nother master’s program. But then you've got this possibility of going, uh, and, and doing a dissertation, finishing a PhD. Now that you're kind of thinking about it, maybe I'm, I'm one, I'm guessing you're probably switching from, “Do I really need this?” to, “What's the possibility that could unfold by doing it?” 

Dean Nicolai: Exactly. That's where I was because I, like I said earlier, I, I, I didn't see it in my future because I felt like everything was just kind of going where, where it needed to go. And the only reason this has came out is because of the Willow project.  

Ashby Kinch: Yep. That's what I was trying to kinda get to again, is being around these other faculty members and seeing other kind of possible projects and things that you could do kind of inspired you? 

Dean Nicolai: Yeah, it definitely did. And um, We'll just have to see--and I, I would want to come here. I definitely would. I know they say you shouldn't do your bachelor's, your master's, and your doctorate at all at the same place. But I can't see myself going anywhere else, really. Um, this is the area that I want to be in. I, I love Montana. I just can't see myself going anywhere else to do that. And so, so if U of M, you're listening… 

[laughter] 

Ashby Kinch: We're listening.  

Dean Nicolai: Okay. Um, but I mean, we'll just have to see where it goes because now if we have a master's degree, if we can get that in place at, at SKC, that's, I want, I would want to teach in that program. You know? And that means we can bring in more faculty, we can grow our department even more. And then just to, just to take another step back--you know, Kate and I worked through the Willow program. The project that I decided to do early on was with collabo--in collaboration with Kate Shanley. And we wanted to work on a master's degree for the, for the Native American Studies degree here or work on one for U of M. 

And so we applied for a grant, the Henry Lucy Foundation grant: $50,000 to sort of get it off the ground and, um, create some time for us to do things and, but then COVID hit. So we were planning to travel and look at some of the other programs out there and see what they, what, what the models were, and then try to build that program, um, and then present it to the Board of Regents and see where it went. Now, as far as I know, um, well, Kate is retired.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. But it was approved, you know. 

Dean Nicolai: And it's been approved. So I'm like, “Wow, okay. So something good came outta Willow,” you know?  

Ashby Kinch: Absolutely.  

Dean Nicolai: And yeah, and I'm glad I was part of that collaboration effort. I feel like all I do is collaborate. I think that's, feels like that's my world. And I love to do it, you know? And so, um, I collaborate in archeology. I'm collaborating as far as building capacity at SKC through fellowship programs and things like that. I want to create opportunities for our students there. And the reason I feel like I, I'm, I need to do that or I owe that to our students, is because that's what happened with me. 

If it wasn't for the Kate Shanley’s out there and others, I wouldn't be where I'm at today. And I don't know if you, I don't know what you even wanna call it. I don't if it's success or whatever it is, it just, I'm happy with what I'm doing. You know, and so…  

Ashby Kinch: And there's nothing more important. And, and especially when you're happy doing the work that gives back, so importantly to your community. Right. And Kate, I mean, that's, you're not the only person to have this story about Kate. I mean, it's worth saying and, and getting it on record. I mean, what an incredible person and, and--  

Dean Nicolai: Oh gosh. Yeah.  

Ashby Kinch: --played such an important role in mentoring a number of, of students, including graduate students and you know, in our podcast, that's one of the things we really like to elevate is that that role of the mentor and the, and the incredibly important, but also kind of subtle role they'll play. It's not just about the courses and it's not just about the curriculum, right? It's about the, it's the stuff that happens between uh.. 

Dean Nicolai: It is, it's those, those little things where, you know, Kate's door was always open. It wasn't like you, you show and they don't have time for you. It's like, “No, come on in.” Because that was inviting. And without that, I, I don't know if I'd have really wanted to be a part of it. Uh, you know, it's, it's not just the coursework, it's not just the program. It's the people. And I mean even lifelong colleagues that I went to school with, I still keep in touch with them, you know? And they're all out there doing their thing as well, you know? It's, it's really great cuz we can have those conversations and be like, wow, what are you up to? You know. And, uh, those things also turn into collaboration. Yeah. You know?  

Ashby Kinch: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and you're a connector. That's just such an obvious one of your attributes. You’re interpersonal, you know, just, you're always looking to connect with people— 

Dean Nicolai: --Well, thank you. 

Ashby Kinch: and that's, I think it's just, it's, it's a skill that not everyone has. Right? And you've got it in, in great depth.  

Dean Nicolai: Well, I--sometimes, maybe.  

[laughter] 

Ashby Kinch: Alright, so we end every episode with what we call quick hitters. Don't overthink 'em. First thing comes to your mind. Morning or night person? 

Dean Nicolai: Night person.  

Ashby Kinch: Sunrise or sunset?  

Dean Nicolai: Sunset.  

Ashby Kinch: Yellowstone or Glacier?  

Dean Nicolai: Ooh.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, that's a tough one now.  

Dean Nicolai: Well, I'm working in Glacier--I was working in Glacier, doing archeology. I wa--and now, now I'm working in Yellowstone. So if they're listening, I— 

Ashby Kinch: Both. 

Dean Nicolai: I gotta say both. Yeah.  

Ashby Kinch: What’s your favorite Montana river and why? 

Dean Nicolai: Uh, the Jocko River. It's, uh, it runs right on the reservation out of the Jocko Canyon all the way to the Flathead River. And I lived on that river. My, my dad's property when I [was] growing up was on that river. And so every summer, every day in the winter, anything that I had a day where I could hit the river, I was fishing it.  

Ashby Kinch: What's your favorite, and I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask it anyway. What's your favorite Montana mountain range? 

Dean Nicolai: Mountain range? Mission Mountain range, for sure. Y 

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's not to love there? 

Dean Nicolai: Oh gosh. I mean it. It's a place where it's, it's got such beauty, but it's so dangerous at the same time. Yeah, the Mission mountain range, for sure. 

Ashby Kinch: I might have an inkling on this one, but what's your shadow profession? What's something that you thought about doing that you never did? So you can't count firefighting. 

Dean Nicolai: Uh, gosh, I don't know. Shadow profession?  

Ashby Kinch: Anything that you ever just dreamed or fantasized about being that, or have you like, just become the thing you fantas-- 

Dean Nicolai: I mentioned, uh, earlier, I mean, I, I would, if I had opportunity, I would go and jump on a fishing boat in the Bering Sea, just to try it out. You know, because it just, to me, that is like comparable to fighting fire. Like the, the danger, danger--   

Ashby Kinch: And you’re a thrill seeker, right? I am. Let's be clear, like, you know, in the summer you're down on the river. You're down on the, the Snake, I think. Right? 

Dean Nicolai: I'm on the Lochsa River in the springtime river boarding there doing rescue, um, just enjoying the river as much as possible. It's just, it's a pretty short season there. It lasts for about two, two and a half months. In the summertime, we hit the gorge, hit the Flathead River. And river boarding is kind of a newer type of sport. It's not paddle boarding. You're in the water. Your back half of your body is in the water. So we wear dry suits with fins on.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. It's body boarding in a river, if people have seen that.  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. We're doing class four and five on the Lochsa in the spring. And you know you’re face-first, and so you're punching waves with your, with your face basically in the board. And so, to me like that, I can't see myself not doing it. You know. I just need those types of things in my life because after not fighting fire anymore, I was missing something. And then this kind of just fell into my lap with a friend that I actually fought fire with, and he's like, “You gotta come try it, man.” And so once I did, I was hooked.  

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. What's the one piece of music you would listen to for eternity?  

Dean Nicolai: Oh gosh. I used to listen to the--I don't know if you've ever seen the, the film Amélie? And it, most of my friends would, probably wouldn't even know this about me. I don't always listen to like pop popular music. I would put that on and fall asleep to it.  

Ashby Kinch: The soundtrack?  

Dean Nicolai: The whole soundtrack, and just listen over and over. 

Ashby Kinch: Can you do hum any of it? Is still in your brain?  

Dean Nicolai: Yeah. I mean, it's that accordion type music, you know?  

Ashby Kinch: Keep going. Let’s hear it. 

Dean Nicolai: It's weird. It's very methodical. And it just, it just kind of just gets into your psyche and like, I could, I would, I would listen to it when I'd study. Or anything else I'm doing, it could be in the background. And it al--it almost like it's, um, helps you focus, you know, it's kind of mesmerizing and focusing at the same time. And pretty soon, you know, you're, you're working or doing something and an hour and a half later you're like, what did, what just happened? You just went through this, you know, and you're--then you're putting it on repeat, you know, listening to it again. 

Ashby Kinch: Um, well, so thank you so much for coming down and joining us on Confluence. This has been great. 

Dean Nicolai: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's been a ball.